Strung Along - An Interview With Kyle David Perry

[00:00:31] Speaker A: What is up, guys? Welcome to another episode of tales from the Tabletop podcast. My name is Jeff Lunter, your forever DM. [00:00:38] Speaker B: And I am Kayla Williams. And I have a confession to make. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Oh, God. [00:00:43] Speaker B: Right off the Bat, Jeff, I have a confession. I haven't been entirely faithful to our group. [00:00:52] Speaker A: You're on another podcast? [00:00:54] Speaker B: Not quite. I do have another DM. [00:00:57] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:00:59] Speaker B: I knew you would be jealous. I knew you were going to have a hard time with it. So to kind of clear the Air and everything, I brought him on today. [00:01:07] Speaker A: This is going to be uncomfortable. [00:01:09] Speaker B: Kyle, why don't you come out from the back? [00:01:11] Speaker C: Hi. [00:01:12] Speaker B: I keep him in a box in my studio apartment. [00:01:16] Speaker C: It's a big Box. [00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah, it's studio apartment. My God, that takes up like half of it. What's up, man? How you doing? [00:01:22] Speaker C: I'm doing great. Hey, I'm just here to clear the air, that's all. [00:01:26] Speaker B: Everybody, this is Kyle. Kyle, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself? [00:01:32] Speaker C: Oh, sure. Well, thanks. Thanks for having me on, folks. I'm Kyle David Perry, Midwest GM and Tabletop enthusiast. [00:01:42] Speaker A: That's a great intro. Shit, I need to steal that Midwest GM. I am the GM of the Midwest. [00:01:47] Speaker C: I've never. Okay, I know. Actually, I only played in Denver. I've never dm'd in Denver, so I'm exclusively a GM. [00:01:56] Speaker A: Wow. Wow. [00:01:57] Speaker B: I guess me as well then, because I've never dmed anywhere else. I guess we could be global because we're online. [00:02:07] Speaker A: Like wherever everyone else is located. We're that GM too. [00:02:11] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Nice. I'm a german GM. [00:02:15] Speaker B: Dalai. We're very excited this week, actually, because this is our first guest. We've been talking about it since the creation of the podcast. I'm super fucking excited because this is kind of the direction that we want to go overall with our podcasts. Reading Reddit stories are fun, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But some original content. That's exciting. [00:02:39] Speaker C: An absolute honor to be your first guest, honestly. [00:02:42] Speaker B: I know. [00:02:42] Speaker A: No pressure. [00:02:43] Speaker B: Surprise. [00:02:45] Speaker C: All right, I'll do my best. [00:02:47] Speaker B: A little bit of background from how we know Kyle. Kyle is my DM from my other group. He is fantastic. Very fanciful, descriptive DM. And we've been playing together a little bit more sporadically. He's like my in person dms. It's harder for us to schedule stuff, but yeah, I just thought he'd be a fantastic guest. And who doesn't have a horror story if you've been playing long enough, right? Let's just get into the questions so we're going to do a little bit of an interview so you guys can. [00:03:25] Speaker A: You did the fucking thing unironically. Kayla, what are you doing? [00:03:28] Speaker B: Shut up. Shut up. You're already. Jeff, we've been fighting today. I'm very wound up, Kyle. [00:03:42] Speaker C: I can't moderate. I'm so sorry. [00:03:46] Speaker B: I'm so sorry you have to see me like this, dude. [00:03:49] Speaker A: A real reason we bring a third person on is to argue on either of our. Like, we need you to take a side right now. [00:03:57] Speaker B: Well, obviously it's my side because I'm right. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Oh, well, okay. [00:04:01] Speaker C: I'm sorry, Jeff. It's right. It's Kayla. [00:04:03] Speaker A: Fuck. Yeah, you're right. She's right, too. [00:04:05] Speaker C: Fuck. [00:04:06] Speaker A: Outnumbered today. [00:04:08] Speaker B: So, Kyle, how long have you been dming for? Give us a little bit of background. [00:04:13] Speaker C: Sure. I've been dming for just under two and a half years. Did not roll my first dice for DND until after the pandemic started. Like many people, June or July of 2020, I'm sorry, almost three and a half years. Because I played a little bit in a couple of different campaigns. And then I very quickly jumped into dming and realized that I prefer it for a lot of reasons, mostly because I can get anybody that I want to to come play because it's like, oh, we don't have a DM. It's like, no, I'm dming. Come to my house and I will captivate you or do my best. [00:04:56] Speaker B: That's so true. It's literally so easy to get a group together. If you're like, fine, I'll be the DM, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. [00:05:03] Speaker A: If someone even smells the flop sweat on you from dming, they know. They're like, yes, this is a DM. I can jump in your group. Thank you. [00:05:10] Speaker C: It's like, oh, you're hosting personal experience, great, I'll come eat you alive and destroy your confidence. [00:05:18] Speaker B: I'm going to be honest, I wouldn't have expected you to be so fresh in the grand scheme of things. [00:05:23] Speaker C: Oh, well, thank you. That's a compliment. I appreciate that. [00:05:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd say when we were playing together, it was very much. It felt like you had a good grasp of things. [00:05:35] Speaker C: Well, thank of, I guess I liken that to just the people that watched. I got into it because some of my best pals, Kayla, some of them that, you know, play it with me. And that was a really nice, safe space to explore. But also because I listened to not another DND podcast and watched a shit ton of dimension 20 and truly just like, watching dozens of hours, if that will actually teach you how to play. [00:06:02] Speaker B: Very true. Kind of like player etiquette or the type of game you want to create. That's, like, a good point, actually. You play with a lot of actors. Do you think that's your preferred way? Because a lot of us just play with inexperienced people. But I think there's a specific benefit to playing with only actors, because they really throw their whole selves into it when they're playing their characters. [00:06:28] Speaker C: They really do. And I have to say that you also do that, and I really appreciate the way that you go about that in a very particular way. [00:06:35] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:06:36] Speaker C: In a less, like, high and mighty way, like some actors do, but still a very grounded, yet very entertaining way. [00:06:42] Speaker A: You don't get any clashing of egos. I mean, I feel like being an actor, be like, damn it, I want the center stage for every scene. [00:06:48] Speaker C: You know, it's tough because I have, like, a yes and no to this, because I don't get, like, a clashing of egos necessarily. But there is, like, some actors do take up a lot of space when they play. Even if they're great to play with and even if they're really lovely at the table, they do take up a lot of space, so you have to have certain dynamics. And I do love playing with actors. I feel like I'm good at wrangling actors. I also have a special place in my heart for playing with people who have never played. I really have a passion for introducing the game to people that are like, I'm not an actor. I couldn't play. And I'm like, not true. [00:07:24] Speaker B: Yeah, that is not an easy skill, I think. Jeff, just like two years ago, when we started our big campaign, all of us were very fresh. At least I was. [00:07:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I know. I'm pretty sure only two of you knew what fifth edition was, or you knew of role playing games and stuff like that, like dtrpgs. But when it came to fifth edition, I'm right there with you, Kyle. I love introducing new people to it, and I guess this could kind of go into what I want to ask you about systems. But my favorite system to introduce people to before five e was a thing was fate. And it's this really basic kind of, like, it's more about the storytelling experience. So it gets people who aren't super comfortable with the idea of role playing into the role playing experience without having to be slogged down by rules. What systems do you think are your favorite so far that you've played. [00:08:16] Speaker C: Incredible question. I've always wanted to play fate ever since I learned about it. I've never actually played huge five e fan, but I've been getting away from it just because there's so many other amazing systems recently. I think my answer to this is actually one that I've not actually been able to jump into and properly play, but I use a lot of dynamics from. It is the kids on vehicle system like kids on bikes or kids on brooms? They have so many tools baked into their system that encourage collaborative storytelling. More of an emotional approach as opposed to, like, a crunchy numbers approach. And there are still numbers for those people who love those crunchy numbers, but it's a lot more interpretive and I really love the idea of rewarding failure with the adversity tokens and the way that they have the character building mechanics laid out in that system. That's one that I've really been drawn to lately. Outside of five e, if I'm being honest, I don't know if you have any experience with kids on brooms or bikes. [00:09:23] Speaker B: Kids on bikes is incredible. I honestly had never had an experience with it until you brought out the kids on Brooms book at our first session, and you used their character building questions to help us build relationships at the table. And that's so hard to do, to genuinely collaborate and build connections with other player characters. I think some of the questions were like, how do you know blah blah blah? What's one rumor that you heard about blah blah blah? And then their character gets to decide if that rumor is true or not. [00:09:59] Speaker C: Yeah, it's fabulous. I'm happy that you had a good time with it. I've used it a couple of times since then and I absolutely love it. [00:10:06] Speaker B: It's such a powerful world building tool that I think cuts some of the fat and takes some of the pressure off of you as a DM, because it's like, while we love to focus on building our backstories and blah blah blah on our characters, it's tough to genuinely meet with another player and be like, hey, how do I know you for real? What's our relationship going to be like? Besides flirting, which I am guilty of. [00:10:33] Speaker C: Which is the basis for any pc to pc relationship? [00:10:36] Speaker A: Yeah, just flirting. That's it. [00:10:38] Speaker C: Flirting or threatening, those are the two. That's really it. [00:10:41] Speaker A: Exactly. Do I hate you or am I really turned on by you? [00:10:44] Speaker B: I ask myself that every day. I think that's a good transition into asking you what your type of preferred world building and storytelling method is, are you the type of guy who has it all figured out from day one, or do you like to let your players lead, or what's your kind of philosophy on that? [00:11:08] Speaker C: Sure. Great question. I love world building. I love collaborative storytelling. So if I have my way, the way that I like to do it is sort of labor intensive. Lots of homework up front, and then you're obviously after that. Once you get past session one, you're good. But that session zero, session one, is a little bit labor intensive. If I have my way, which is I like to introduce, like, I have a lot of the broad strokes in my brain or written down, a lot of the geography or the pantheon or current events. Usually there's an inciting incident of some sort that I pitch to the group to really get people excited, and then I want them to write their backstories, and then I love to incorporate their backstories into as much of my prep as possible. And at that point, once we sort of start, we hit go from the jump. That's when a lot of it is improv. I have sort of the. What is it? The Matt Mercer quote of something about preparation and preparing is there's difference. Like, I'm preparing to not be prepared, if that makes any sense. I have certain things written down that I definitely need to happen. But other than that, I really want the players to sort of drive the direction that we go session to session. And I think it's my job to entice them if I want them to go a certain direction. But I'm always open for it to go whatever direction the players want. But initially on that world build, I do love to have a really strong structure that is based as much in the backstories of the characters as I can. [00:12:46] Speaker B: That's great. It's kind of like, in order to make a toaster, you must create the universe kind of philosophy. You want this one thing in your game, and then you must work backwards from there. So I think general strokes make more sense for dms. I think Jeff is definitely a planner. Would you? [00:13:08] Speaker A: So it depends. This newest campaign that we're diving into is a lot different. I challenged myself a little bit in terms of storytelling, where I have chapters planned out and events to take place, and really, you guys just fill in all of the detail around that. I think I said this before on the podcast, but the way I plan is I plan events or scenarios rather than planning locations, because if the scenario or event is written well enough, you can adapt it to any place that the people are in. Just to keep the story going along, but I am very spoiled by the amount of detail that you guys put into your character backstories and stuff like that, because I am just eating that shit up, and I'm like, oh, this is beautiful. And half of dming is so much easier when players are not prepared necessarily, but contributing more. [00:14:08] Speaker B: They give a shit. [00:14:09] Speaker A: Yeah, they give a shit. I mean, come on. I've played with players that just zone out, and then it's their turn, and they're like, what? Okay, great. Let me redescribe the whole scene. It is theater of the mind. So here's where everyone is so fucking awesome. Love it. [00:14:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And we can kind of dig into that a little bit more. Like, I know we were touching on it a little bit earlier when Kyle said that playing with actors, sometimes it's big personalities that don't want to yield the spotlight, but it's like collaborative dealing with people who are uninterested or people who only want to be the main character. [00:14:46] Speaker C: I would say that most of the time, you don't get people who want the spotlight. Maybe that's happened once or twice. Most of the time, it's good. And just to agree with both of you, it's always better if somebody is involved and cares about the process. Right. As opposed to someone who's sort of apathetic. That's how you get into issues like murder, hobos, or people who don't care about the world enough to interact with it in an ethical way, if that makes any sense. [00:15:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:15:16] Speaker A: You want to keep it fun for the DM as well. I mean, that's, like, a huge responsibility. The DM puts so much work. I mean, we know we put so much work and hours and effort into creating a campaign. Honestly, I would be really excited to see Kayla come up with a long form campaign, not like a one shot. That would be the biggest project undertaking that. I would love to see that. [00:15:38] Speaker B: Just thinking about it gets me much. I am of the school of thought, of keeping it loosey goosey. [00:15:47] Speaker C: I appreciate that school of thought. There's a time and place for both. I think both have to exist to have a fun table. [00:15:55] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm still learning the structure side of things. I like to be like. Yeah. When it comes to what my players are doing, and then I definitely have certain points, like pain points, like, if they're in a dungeon and they're trying to solve something creatively, I'm like, I want you to be able to do that, but I don't want you to break my fucking game right now. But when I'm a player, I'm definitely like, 100% team DM. You give me a plot hook, I'm going to sprint towards it. I love that shit. [00:16:30] Speaker C: Same big same. When I'm a player, you need at. [00:16:32] Speaker A: Least one player like that because it makes what you're doing so much better. You're like, oh, God, thank God. Someone's finally diving towards the plot, and they're not just talking about who they want to. Okay, awesome. I'm both, honestly, that's the whole thing. [00:16:46] Speaker C: Is you just got to incorporate the people they want to fuck into the plot. [00:16:49] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. That's what I did on my first campaign with Kayla. [00:16:52] Speaker B: Oh, no. I was like a little fucking horse, and he had the string with the carrot in front of me, and I was like, guys, I think we should go over here where all the hot milks are. [00:17:04] Speaker A: Let's follow this hot cleric everywhere. Let's just. Everywhere she goes, what is she doing? [00:17:09] Speaker B: I'm with her. I'm going with her. [00:17:11] Speaker C: Got to follow the hot. Just. Just to put a button on. Think, you know, talking about sort know, being loosey goosey and letting the players do what they want to do and reacting in real time. I think, Jeff, something you said reminded me of sort of how I do it. I'm perfectly okay spending, like, 30 minutes prepping something that may never come to light, but if they stumble upon it, they know that I've prepped it, because suddenly a whole new world has opened up for them. So the idea of, like, oh, these events will be happening in the background whether you engage with them or not. And it's just a matter of whether you engage with them up front or whether you are just experiencing the consequences of these events that were uninterrupted by you. In either way, I'm going to have something that's happening in my world come towards them in some positive or negative way. [00:18:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Regardless of what the players do, the world is still living and breathing around them. That's what I'm doing with this most recent campaign. This is why it's so difficult and new to me, just because I'm like, there's all this background shit the players are just stumbling across in DND, like, traditional five e. It's just like, yeah, whatever. It's pre written shit. But this is all like, okay, these are relationships happening in the background that players had no fucking idea because most of them are new to the magical world of Chicago. And, oh, my fuck, it's beautiful. I love that idea of just like, yep. Little pieces in the background. Why did I stumble across an already blown up Chicago theater? What the fuck is going on? And they have no idea. It's just like, oh, that was. Whatever that was just a fight off screen. [00:18:45] Speaker B: Always have something cooking. [00:18:49] Speaker C: Not to turn the interview on the head, but, Jeff, is your current campaign in Chicago set in? [00:18:55] Speaker A: It's a. It's a Dresden universe that uses the fate system, but is also like its own version of fate. My favorite thing about fate, which I can fucking talk about fate all day, but to get you more encouraged to do a fate campaign, you can adapt really any setting to it. And I did a fallout campaign in it. I did a ruby campaign. I did South park stick of Truth style, which was interesting, but they actually wrote a Dresden system, which is a book series about a wizard in modern day Chicago into fate. Like, they used a lot of the fate world building and shit like that to make Dresden happen. So really, fate is a system and you can adapt any setting to it. And I based it in modern day Chicago. [00:19:44] Speaker C: That's metal. That's really metal. [00:19:46] Speaker A: It's metal. Considering. Well, the main reason I did it instead of any other city is because three of my players, including my girlfriend, have lived in Chicago for extended periods of time. So I'm like, okay, Chicago it is. [00:20:00] Speaker B: He'll pull something up and I'll be like, I know that I live there. [00:20:04] Speaker A: I look at my fucking Google maps, Lakeshore Boulevard, and everyone's like, I was. [00:20:10] Speaker C: Just there for 17 minutes in traffic. [00:20:14] Speaker A: I see this in my head, just. [00:20:17] Speaker B: Sitting back like, easy, easy world building. Or he'll say something like, oh, this is right next to this. And we have to be like, no. [00:20:26] Speaker A: Jeff, that's a 20 on the metro line. [00:20:31] Speaker B: Apparently we can just take the red line fucking everywhere. [00:20:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that makes sense. [00:20:35] Speaker C: Jeff, you have to take the blue line if you want to go west. Don't you know this? Grow up. [00:20:39] Speaker A: No, God damn it. I don't. This is why I have three players that live in Chicago. [00:20:44] Speaker C: Like, fuck. [00:20:45] Speaker B: Yeah. We actually had an in person session not too long ago. It feels like yesterday. It was probably a few months. [00:20:52] Speaker A: It was literally may, like seven months ago. [00:20:55] Speaker B: I don't want to talk about it. I'm going to get sad after the pandemic. [00:20:59] Speaker A: I was so sad that you brought up the pandemic earlier because it made me realize how time just doesn't matter anymore. Just after the pandemic, everything's just lost. Thanks for that. No, I'm just kidding. [00:21:11] Speaker B: I think that's a good segue into the next question of do you prefer online with DND, or do you like in person more? [00:21:21] Speaker C: This is a very clear cut answer for me, but I have a little asterisk I want to put on it. I 100% prefer in person. Because you cannot replicate online the collective gas from your players, or the laughing, or just the energy in real life, or the snacks, or the music, or the lights. Yes, I do use lights. [00:21:42] Speaker A: Or the looks that players give each other across the room and you're like. [00:21:46] Speaker C: Or the absolute pandemonium when more than one player is just diving into something at once and then it just devolves into something you have to get a grasp on. I love those moments. And zoom or discord cannot replicate those moments. Now, my asterisk is, and I actually just talked to somebody about this recently, is like, cool. Here are your options. You can deal with technical issues and play an annoying ass zoom game for 3 hours, or you're not going to play DND. Which one is it? I'd rather play online than not play at all. [00:22:18] Speaker B: There is a defunct land quote that I think is very poignant. It's something along the lines of, I hate every single thing about the creative process, like making art. The only thing more painful than making art is not making art. [00:22:38] Speaker C: That's good. If I could just muse on that, wax poetic for a moment, perhaps we're all going to get sad today. And it's fine. [00:22:47] Speaker A: It's 09:00 a.m. You already mentioned the pandemic. [00:22:49] Speaker C: I'm very jokes on you, pal. I'm about to mention theater careers, so we're really getting sad. No, that quote, that's a really. Wow, Kayla. That quote kind of sits heavy with me because I realized late into my collegiate theater career of like, why am I doing this? Why am I going through the trouble of directing a play or acting in a play? There's so much stress that goes into it, but it's like, oh, the alternative is I don't get to hang out with these people, and I don't get that overwhelming feeling of us opening and people seeing the work that we've done. And that's the only thing that makes it worth it, are those two things. [00:23:28] Speaker A: And also, if you don't do an online experience, you don't get to introduce more people to that world. In the realm of role playing, I had a role in a server where I actually met one of my players for a long time, that I was like the DM of the server, and that's why I did fate is because it was a good introductory kind of thing. And the reason I drew it towards Kayla and this group that we're currently in is because I found they are more roleplay focused than mechanics and number crunchy focused. So I'm like, this is just a perfect embodiment of exactly what they want to. And like, online play is just so perfect because I had people from Denmark and I had people from Germany and Scotland and just all over the world joining in on a thing that they probably would have never been able to experience where they are currently. [00:24:15] Speaker C: That's beautiful. Just the accessibility for people who are not near you geographically or even just people who can't leave their house or are still not to bring it up one more time, but people who still can't or won't be in social gatherings because of the pandemic, because it's still going on for most people. I do love that it's there just because you're so right. So many people would never have played it off if it wasn't for this opportunity that online play gives us. For sure. [00:24:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm so happy that it's become more accessible overall. There's so many more online tools for people to use, like DND beyond roll 20. You can make digital miniatures online as well. It's just so fantastic. And for people with ADHD like me, I can just space out and scroll through tumblr without hurting anybody's feelings, unlike I can in that hurts so much. [00:25:21] Speaker A: To. [00:25:25] Speaker C: I make a. Can I make a tabletop confession real quick? I have done that. I have been that person where it's like, oh, I need to go run a mile or I will not be able to focus. Oh, we're playing online tight. I'm just going to scroll through something while it's somebody else's turn and I have all my shit ready, like I'm good to go. I just need my mind to divert attention. And Kaylee, you're right, it's a great way to do it without hurting anyone's feelings because no one really knows and it's fine. [00:25:54] Speaker B: That's probably why you enjoy dming as well, because you have to be engaged the whole time without really getting bored. Because honestly, if you are waiting for somebody to take their turn, I've been the monk, sitting there waiting for the fucking spellcaster to look at the list of 30 spells they have and decide which one is the perfect one to cast in this moment. And I'm like, can I just fucking punch something? [00:26:20] Speaker A: And space out as much shit as I talk. That's exactly why I DM, because I cannot, for the love of God, focus. It sucks. I'm pretty sure all of us here have some kind of like AdHD bs going on and it's just I feel like most DMs probably have that have ADHD or ad. [00:26:42] Speaker B: Something wrong with. [00:26:43] Speaker A: There's a little something wrong with us. I would love to play, but I can't focus. [00:26:48] Speaker C: Oh God, you've exposed the entire hobby, Jeff. [00:26:53] Speaker B: Oh, no. [00:26:54] Speaker A: I'm going to be set ablaze. I can't wait to be on rpg horror stories. We're going to read a story about us. [00:27:01] Speaker B: We're going to be on the next idiots. [00:27:04] Speaker A: So as a DM, and you've been doing it for a few years, so you have enough experience. I mean, doing it for even like a few months is like enough experience. I feel like if you're putting yourself into the role of understanding all the rules and getting players engaged, what do you think would be a good tip for a first time DM? [00:27:27] Speaker C: That's a great question. I agree. Like, anybody who's done it once is like, oh, great, you've done it. You can just keep doing. So my, I guess my only tip, I am going to take a sort of Brennan Lee Mulligan approach to this because I think he. Oh, no, you shit. [00:27:41] Speaker A: Okay, sorry, guys, this is Brennan Lee Mulligan. [00:27:43] Speaker B: Surprise. [00:27:44] Speaker A: Yeah. Surprise. It's not Kyle, please, dear God. [00:27:46] Speaker B: Different on the mic. [00:27:47] Speaker C: I couldn't, I could never. But I will. Sort of in the same vein as something that he said online regarding tips for improvisers, it's sort of the same thing of the only tip I really have is, and unfortunately this is not something that everyone can do, so it's not a requirement, but it does help. It's just have people that you trust around you and if you have even just two friends, just do it. Just do it. There's no wrong way to do it. I think the third paragraph in the player's handbook is like, hey, these are all rules, but they're all also just guidelines because the most important thing is having fun and the second most important thing are telling a good story. And neither of those are affected necessarily by any of the mechanics. As much as I love all of the mechanics, neither of those two things are affected by it. So I guess my tip to any dms, first time or struggling or otherwise, is keep it collaborative, keep it fun, and for yourself included. As you said earlier, jeff, that's really it. It's just keep it collaborative, keep it fun for everyone involved, and don't get bogged down by anything that doesn't spark joy. [00:29:04] Speaker A: That's a good way to look at it because it's like, I hate the rule. Like, some rules that are just digging in. And if it takes more time to look up the rule than to enjoy what's happening in the moment, wing it. You don't need every single rule in fifth edition. [00:29:21] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:29:22] Speaker C: And be okay with, oopsies, we did this wrong last time. We're going to do it right this time. Or retconning. If something affects the story, be okay with that. You're all telling a story together. Nothing is law. It's all okay. Especially if you're just getting started. Just do the thing, because nothing will make you more comfortable doing it than just doing it. And I know that sounds easier than it is to do, but it's true. Just truly like. And it's also what I have to say. And this goes for dms. This goes for players. This goes for players who have kind of like hard ass dms. For all of those people, this is an open book test. Look up a rule. Or, like, if you want to know what a spell is, just look it up real quick. Or, oh, I'm not sure I'm your DM and I'm not sure about that. Let me check. Really quick talks amongst yourselves or run a scene. Run a scene while I look this up. It's so open. It's so collaborative. There's so many opportunities for people to have fun without having to be intimidated by sort of like what used to be. It used to be cool to gatekeep this hobby. I'm glad to see that it's no longer cool to gatekeep this because we want everyone to be able to enjoy it. [00:30:39] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah. It's so nice, too, because I think people get so, especially first time dms, they get so caught up on wanting to create the perfect experience and have all of their players have the most fun ever and create the most perfect story that could be written into a fucking book. And everybody would love it, but it's like, let's be real. As much as it hurts me to say this, I love the stories we've made in our DND campaign, but literally, me and five other people are the only ones who give a shit. I've made so much art, it's very. [00:31:15] Speaker A: Hard to tell stories about your DND campaign to people that aren't in it because they're like, okay, I'm like, no. [00:31:20] Speaker B: But you don't understand. It was really cool. Her father died, so this means everything to her. [00:31:27] Speaker A: There was, like, this big reveal where they literally took the soul of a bassist, and everyone's like, okay, this is. [00:31:34] Speaker B: My roman empire pictures I've drawn. Exactly. I've drawn so much art for our campaign, and literally nobody cares but the people I play with. And it's so, like, thus is art, right. The only thing more painful than not creating creating art is not creating it. [00:31:55] Speaker A: There you go. [00:31:55] Speaker C: And even as a self proclaimed empath, unironically, even you saying that, it's like, no, I care. But then realizing, like, no, I only care selfishly. I only care if it's like, I don't care. I care because you're my friend. But also I only care if I get to join you. Cool. Tell me about it. [00:32:14] Speaker B: But then I want to be a part of it. [00:32:17] Speaker C: Exactly. Yes. [00:32:19] Speaker B: The whole point of dungeons and dragons and these collaborative storytelling games is the fun is that you are a part of it. And I think people don't want to consider that selfish has, like, a negative connotation to it. But, yeah, selfishly, this is how I enjoy the game, because it's about me. It's about my friends. I get to be the main character sometimes. [00:32:44] Speaker C: That's the beauty of it. You and two to four other people are the main characters. However many people you have at your table, you are the main characters. Yeah, the DM is there, too. They have a very specific job, which is to, in my opinion, and maybe this is a hot take. I don't know if it is or not. In my opinion, the DM is there to react essentially to what the characters are doing. And that's what acting is. Acting is reacting. You have your lines, but you have to react by listening and then responding. That's what improv is. All of those performance based collaborative arts is acting and reacting, listening and collaborating. Yeah, I want to be a part of it. That's the whole thing. Absolutely right. [00:33:30] Speaker B: Clap, clap, clap, clap. All right, so I've got one more question for you. [00:33:36] Speaker C: Sure. [00:33:37] Speaker B: And it's kind of in the vein of our podcast theme. You know what we do here? We read horror stories. We're going to have you read your horror story. What does expectation setting look like for you and your team? Like, say you never played with people before. How do you set expectations up for, like, we're going to have a fun game. Everybody's going to be empathetic and cool. Because I think a lot of the times, the thing people in our stories get caught up on are just not communicating with each other. So how do you bring communication to your table and make sure it's a good experience? [00:34:09] Speaker C: I love this question. It's so important for me, and I've played with probably between ten to 15 different iterations of people. Maybe a little bit more than that. A lot of one shots, right? A lot of different things. I am of the belief that it needs to be tailor made to the individual, specific group. And this is really where the dms like the work the GM is doing, is coming into play, is like, it needs to be tailor made, bar none. There should always be some sort of session zero, something where everybody is in the same group talking about. And it boils down to, again, broad strokes. What kind of genres do you want to engage with? Do you want it to be goofy? Do you want it to be grim, dark? Do you want it to have a little bit of both? Do we love horror? Do we not? Do we want to have a heavy role play game? Really setting expectations and receiving expectations is the first step of like cool. What is going to be a fun game for you? And like me, I'm easy. I like all of it. Put me at a table, I will acclimate. I am good. Some other people it's like, no, I need the crunch. I need every single rule to be followed. And the fun part for me is spending eight minutes looking up this rule and seeing if Jeremy Crawford has a ruling on this specific exception. That's fine. For other people it's like, no, I don't really want rules. It's Kayla, something that you said really gravitates where the GM just is going to decide when the monster is dead at the right time. And for a lot of people, that's fun. For me, it's somewhere in between. So I think the main thing is to set expectations and receive expectations for yourself and from your players and then allow your players to intermingle as well and let them. That is such an important before you start rolling dice, before you start playing characters, at the very least, everyone needs to be at the table in person or virtually for a conversation about it. And as far as the session zero, if you want to create your characters together and go that far with it, that's great. But at the very least there should be a conversation of like cool, what is going to be fun for you? What is not going to be fun for you? The second step of that is lines and veils, which I think you two have talked about a little bit of like, I know that you two subscribe to this idea. I think we're all on the same page where once you know cool, this is what's going to be fun. This is what's not going to be fun. This is stuff that's in between that's fun for some, but not fun for some. Then you have to make sure you establish your hard lines of, like, cool. Here are some things that we can refer to, and then here are things that we absolutely will not be bringing up. And I actually have a document, and I think that, kayla, you do too, right? Like, an actual lines and that, like, that comes into play. And again, I don't ever want to scare new players if it can be. [00:37:10] Speaker B: Kind of intense handing them this sheet. [00:37:12] Speaker A: Like, hey, what are you comfortable with? And this is, like, almost a questionnaire that people don't necessarily give to anyone other than their therapist. It's like, fuck, what am I comfortable with? Oh, God. [00:37:23] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. It's a trust thing, right? So it's like, hey, and I have, like, a genre based sort of Google form of like, hey, fill this out so I know what you like. I don't like to put that on people unless that's the thing that they like. I don't want to scare people off. So if I can help it, the only piece of paperwork I'm handing them is that sheet. And I have it via email. They can just click boxes. And then I compile all of the lines and veils. And without any names attached, I will send a list of lines and veils to everybody via email. Like, hey, y'all, before we get started, so excited, here are things that nobody's going to talk to. It doesn't matter who doesn't want to talk about them. We're not going to talk about any of these things. And then here are things that let's really tread carefully on everything else. Let's go nuts. And then we just go. So I think those are the two most important parts, is managing expectations and receiving expectations on fun and then making sure player safety is a number one priority. And I guess that's the DM's sort of tireless job of trying to maintain a fun, not too intense environment while accomplishing both of those goals. [00:38:30] Speaker B: I think that's really why I think. [00:38:31] Speaker C: I've scared all the new dms away at this point. I hope not. [00:38:36] Speaker B: It's genuinely really hard to make sure everybody's having a good time. And as a chronic people pleaser, I feel that pressure often, but I think main takeaway is it should be fun and it should be comfortable. And you can't have fun unless you're comfortable. [00:38:52] Speaker C: You just said it way better than I did in the last five minutes. That's exactly it. Just keep those pillars in mind and you're going to be golden. [00:39:00] Speaker A: See, this podcast is very good at taking other people's words and making them funny and better. So sorry. I apologize that you were victim to that summarize. We're very good at paraphrasing. [00:39:10] Speaker C: No, sorry from you. Thank you from me. I'm just going to take that and run with it. [00:39:17] Speaker B: Thank you for that lovely interview, Kyle. I think you have such a way with words. That's why I invited you. [00:39:24] Speaker C: Aw, shuck. [00:39:25] Speaker B: Thanks. Whenever you're ready, feel free to get into the story. [00:39:29] Speaker C: And I was telling you two off, Mike. This is less of a horror story, more of a slow burn thriller. Still has some interesting moments. And the first part of it, the first horrific thing that happens, is self inflicted. So this is my home game with people that Kaylin know. Actually three friends of mine, our DM, and then we have two other friends. So our DM sort of has us know, kidnapped, and then we're all on a journey to stop the wizard of Vecna from resurrecting him. All good stuff. Very good stuff. [00:40:07] Speaker B: Classic situation. Classic kidnapping. [00:40:10] Speaker C: Classic. Very classic. Yes. Very dragon age esque. Very critical role. A lot of fun. A whole lot of fun. They're a great DM. So we defeat the demigod and my dragonborn, wild magic barbarian, Rygar. He's like a peacekeeper, but he's failing at peacekeeping because he's so good at fighting and everyone wants him just to fight. And the rest of the party is arguing. He just wants to save lives. That's all he wants to do. So after the big demigod battle, we actually defeat them. There's some infighting between the other two characters and an NPC that nobody likes where some in party conflict almost happens, almost pops off. My character, Ryegar calms things down and it's important to note, uses their only Bard spell slot because they just took their 6th level. In Bard, they have five barb, one bard. So I used my only spell slot to cure wounds. This NPC that is like a leader of a resistance that we almost got into it with. So that's important to note that my one healing spell slot is gone before the events I'm about to unfold to. [00:41:21] Speaker B: You happen to the NPC nobody likes to. [00:41:24] Speaker C: The NPC that nobody likes mind you, in order to diffuse a situation that wasn't necessary. And again, all of this is, I have to sort of put in place. All of this was really fun. Deeply in character choices that all of us were really enjoying. Like, none of it was bad in real life, if that makes any sense. [00:41:44] Speaker B: Fantastic. [00:41:45] Speaker C: We were all really liking the direction that these three sort of ragtag characters were going because none of us are alike and we don't get along, but we're doing the good work of defeating this devil. So it's a really fun dynamic. And the two players and the DM, the four of us have been friends for like eight years, and we all went to theater school together, so we trust each other implicitly. So the really deep, heavy role play that we get into is awesome. And then we're able to sort of just wash it off and laugh it off and move forward with nothing, with very little bleed, which bleed is like when emotions from your character start affecting. [00:42:26] Speaker B: Ooh, I like that term. I'm going to learn. [00:42:31] Speaker C: I really want to know where I learned it from. There's a specific person on formerly Twitter that I follow that has a whole thread about it. [00:42:40] Speaker A: It was, you just own up to. It's all original thoughts. Make them on. [00:42:45] Speaker B: Right off the dome. [00:42:46] Speaker A: Right off the dome. [00:42:47] Speaker C: Right off the dome, baby. We're all geniuses. So we all go to the docks of this jungle that we're in after we defeat the demigod snake goddess, who's like Vecna's sort of mini boss, right? So after this, we're going to go stop the blood moon ritual. We're going to stop Vecna. But on the way to this next step, we have to do damage control on these won t, which are snake people village being starting to be burned down like this merchants sort of. What's it called? Like a merchant's dock in the city starting to be burned down by the demigods soldiers. So we have to stop this, right? We have to get into battle and different places are on fire. My DM is doing a good job of explaining, oh, you hear a voice screaming from this building on fire. And, oh, the bar you were at is on fire. And you hear voices screaming. And my character, what is my character going to do? They want to save the NPC. They want to save whatever screaming voice is in that building. So I go, do I recognize the voice? The DM says, no, it's a scream. I said, okay, do you think I could save them if I roll well enough? And they said the classic you could certainly try. And me being me, my main character syndrome in that moment, completely ignored him and said, great, we're going to go. [00:44:13] Speaker B: And great, so I could do it. [00:44:18] Speaker C: So Rygar and Rygar's NPC sister, which is sort of like who he's been trying to track down this whole time, we saved her and then she helped us defeat the demigod she came with. So it was me and one other NPC, a cleric. So heels. So we go in and things immediately start going wrong. Immediately. Like, we go in and my DM and we've talked about this so often on my own podcast, we've mentioned it in person. We've told this story to other friends. He literally in real time, was looking up certain things and after the fact got advice from other dms of like, did I do this fairly? And by all accounts, he really, really did. He did everything right and it was still tragic. Spoiler alert. So we get in, it's like, oh, great, make a constitution save from the smoke inhalation. Okay, great. Make a dexterity saving throw because this building is on fire enough that this beam from the ceiling is going to fall on you. Okay, great. You take this much damage moving forward, going upstairs. That's where you hear the screaming voice from. Make another deck save as. Make a luck check. Make a deck save. All of these different saves, they all make sense because we're in a burning building. We ran into a burning building. We fall through the stairs and get trapped in the walls of the house. [00:45:38] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:45:39] Speaker C: And at that point, it's just athletics checks. Like, I go into a rage and I'm like, great, I'm just going to be bashing into this wall. And I get advantage on these, right? Because I'm in a rage that's a mechanic and I'm failing left and right. And then I go down from the damage that we're just taking every round. So then, you know, I have like two potions on me. I have to give one to my sister to keep her alive so she can keep healing me with her spells. We eventually run out of heels altogether because it took that long. It was that brutal. And we finally get out. We do not rescue the bartender. They end up perishing. We didn't even get upstairs because we fell through. But we finally get through. We break through. And then my character goes down one more time and the NPC takes the time to resuscitate me one last time. That's the last spell. And then she goes down and it ends with me, my character pulling my unconscious NPC sister out of the burning building and we barely escape. And then what was going to happen all along? The small troop of wanty soldiers starts marching down the road and encounter. [00:46:49] Speaker B: Oh my God. [00:46:50] Speaker C: So no rages, no spell slots. And that's where we ended the session, I think. And then we came back and the next session ended with, like, we had some companions that I rolled really well on a charisma check even though I had like a negative one and I was a bad bard. It was really bad. And then I got these characters, other npcs to take my sister away. And then I straight up went out Boromir style. It was like five v one. I did some really good damage to two of them, but there's no way that my character with like seven HP and no rages and no spell slots, mind you, survives that. [00:47:31] Speaker B: Oh my God. So you died after all of that? [00:47:34] Speaker C: I died and I had to use my last spell slot before we even got into this mess. My one and only spell slot left after the battle. I had one left after the battle. I had to use that on the NPC like the resistance leader. So I couldn't use it in that moment to bring up my sister and we maybe would have had a chance. Two v five if she was up and if she was able to heal. [00:47:59] Speaker B: Me again, that is a thriller. [00:48:02] Speaker C: So she just kept going down. And so that's actually part one if I'm allowed to keep going. So my character dies and for the rest of the session I sit there quietly and my other two friends, they're like, can we hear. Can we casually hear anything? And my DM's like, no. You're like a quarter mile of away at this know, you're a thousand feet away. You're thousands of feet away. There's no way you can hear. You went to where you said you were going to go. Rygar made a detour and Kyle fucked up because that was what my character was going to do. So then they just had to keep fighting these soldiers and doing the regular plot while I was just sitting there. And then the session after that, my DM and I come up with my new character. Character. That helped me realize I'm non binary, by the way, because we came up with. I wanted to play a changeling. A changeling that took the form of their dead lover because they can change their face. Very classic grimdark, tragic sort of Edgelord backstory, but done right because done by a person that knows not to act that way in real life. But they're an oath breaker, Paladin, that is forsaken. Their oath to the all mother for various reasons. I can get into that backstory, but moving forward, their whole thing is collecting items of the freshly dead to then commit those items to the Ravens queens, the Raven queen's menagerie of items with fresh death energy. Sort of that sort of thing. [00:49:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:45] Speaker C: So, literally, the next session after my character dies, my new character, Belle, this changeling, who looks like a tiefling, rolls up with her band of other Raven Queen devotees to collect my first characters, Ocarina and medallion. [00:50:03] Speaker B: Oh, that's good. That's good. [00:50:06] Speaker C: So it was so cool, and it immediately led to conflict because it's like the other two characters find out my first character is dead, and they obviously want to protect them at all costs. And who the fuck is this other person coming in, trying to literally take our friend's stuff? And it was just such an amazing moment of in depth role play where these three people didn't like each other a lot, but cared for each other and trusted each other because they were doing a job. All of a sudden, you see the other two players really desperately trying to keep my character's body safe and trying to make sure that my character's sister is safe, and there was a whole funeral for my character, and then tenuously, my character joins the party only because they have the common goal of, like, oh, the Raven Queen wants me to defeat Vecna. Here you two are doing that. I know we don't like each other, but let's work together. And so now the dynamic is the two of them, also me. Not the three of us. The two of them, also me. [00:51:10] Speaker B: But now the other two characters are a little bit more united because. [00:51:17] Speaker C: They'Re very close now. Like, the characters are very close. Trauma is a hell of a thing. [00:51:22] Speaker B: Hell of a drug. [00:51:23] Speaker C: Hell of a drug. Trauma is a hell of a drug to make a really long story slightly less long and moving to sort of, like, where this bleed comes back in. Recently, we only get to play, like, once every couple of months, just because that's just how it goes sometimes. We have defeated the hand of Vecna, we've defeated the wizard. But during that process, one of the other characters had this really important character from their past come back during that battle as, like, it was a bear, and this bear was, like, an undead bear. But then they had an opportunity to resurrect the bear, essentially, once we defeated the hand of Ecna, my character, the whole premise of the character is their absolute hatred for necromancy, which is why they left the all mother and went to the Raven Queen, because the Raven queen respects the circle of death in this universe and the all mother does not in my character's eyes. So any sort of necromance, even, like, revivify, is going like a bridge, too. So it's interesting because in that moment, it's like, great. We've defeated the big bad. The encounter is not over yet. We still have to roll and contribute and help this other player at the table, our friend Gabby, actually, her character's sort of, like, really important, this bear from her character's life. We had to help resurrect this bear. So in that moment, my dm was like, cool. Does Belle help or does Belle not? Because the choices in Belle's head, my character's head were, I need to stop this. This is against everything that I believe in. I need to actively stop my two new companions from doing what they're doing. So instead, Belle forsakes themselves by leaving. They opt out. In her mind, she's betrayed her goddess by not stopping this, but in Gabby's character's mind, she's betrayed the party by not helping. [00:53:24] Speaker B: Right. [00:53:24] Speaker C: So in my character's brain, she's done too much. In Gabby's character's brain, she didn't do enough. And that's where this rift has come into play now, where we get into situations where Gabby's character and my character are yelling at each other, and I wouldn't recommend this. Right? I wouldn't recommend this unless you are really comfortable with and you have a lot of trust. You have a lot of trust. We're really deeply into character. And again, with the actor bullshit. We're all actors at this table. But it's gotten really interesting because my DM, I think, sort of called it the closest thing to PvP without throwing hands. We're not getting violent, but we're arguing and the other player character has to facilitate. And we have gotten to a point now where we've been playing this campaign for two years, we know these characters so well, we know each other so well that we are telling this incredible story with this huge conflict where both of these people feel like they're so right and there's absolutely no wiggle room. Neither of them are going to falter at all in how they feel and there's no path forward, but they have to keep moving forward because the next thing is happening and no one's going to do it but them. So they have to work together and it's just interesting because a little bit of bleed has happened, a little bit where my DM gives us an ethical situation that we have to tackle in character. And because we're all so close, here's the twist ending. Because we're all so close and we all know each other. We've known each other for eight, nine years at this point. All of us have continuously, like, we live together. Some of us are roommates together. We know each other so well because of that. We never went through lines and veils because we thought we knew everything about each other, right? So we get into this interesting, tenuous moment where suddenly one of us has. We get into this ethical situation, and one of us has. And maybe they even discovered that they have that sort of line or veil in the moment of like, oh, this is not fun for me anymore. This has become too real. And in the moment, the rest of us had to pause and be like, whoa, okay, for the first time ever, let's back up and pause and let's take a second before we move forward. And that was sort of the twist ending of that was like, oh, my gosh. These tools that I use so often, we've never used them in this home game because we know each other so well, but we have to keep that open communication about it because this game is powerful, and anything powerful has the ability to harm, so we got to take it easy. So, yeah, that's really it. But that whole thing has come to blows in the last couple months when we all realized this. [00:56:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's so interesting. [00:56:21] Speaker C: We played since then. We're playing again in person, actually, our friend is coming from Texas here, and the four of us will be together, and we're playing again on Saturday. So we've moved past it and it's great, but it happened, and it was a really come to, insert God here moment for me. [00:56:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it really goes to show that it doesn't matter how well you think you may know somebody, you still need to consent is an ongoing conversation. Even in the world of role playing. Especially in the world of role playing. Like, you can know someone for eight years and it never came up, or they may have discovered it in the moment. I think that's why you guys having the trust you do and having safety. I think we talked about this last episode, Jeff, but it's like having a safety net in place so that if it does fail, you can't know what's going to freak you out in the moment. But if you guys have a system and you have trust, and you guys all stopped in the moment. That's great. That's exactly how you should handle that situation. [00:57:25] Speaker C: I totally agree. And that's actually the thing is, we didn't stop in the moment. This conversation happened out of game. It kind of came up and escalated, like, when we were just hanging out and chatting as roommates, and me and my other roommate went, oh, shit. So now we do have that system. Now it's like, okay, we've all communicated, and now exactly what you just said, which is so important. Now we finally do have that. And, yeah, it's just all about checking in. It's just interesting how, no matter what, this game can take you to places that you've never thought possible, for better or for worse. [00:57:57] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a beautiful system. I love this game so much. [00:58:00] Speaker C: Me too. I know. Offensive ending to a typically no. [00:58:05] Speaker A: Are you kidding me? That's what we're here for. We love the entertaining stories. That's why we read shitty most of the time. If they're on Reddit, it's because they're bitching about something. But this is nice to have a story that wasn't just fuck this guy, and then the whole table comes out and bitches. [00:58:23] Speaker B: I think it's a good example, too. Like, your player died, but you don't feel any type of way about it because it sounds like you had agency over that player's death. You got to go out the way you wanted in a blaze of glory, and your sister was safe. [00:58:37] Speaker C: I did. You're so really, like, looking back, I do really appreciate that agency and my DM being like, cool. What are Rygar's final thoughts as he drifts to whatever afterlife he may? And it's like, okay, cool. I get that moment. That's really dope. [00:58:53] Speaker B: Yeah. You get closure to the character, and I think the reason why a lot of people get upset over player death is like, there should be stakes and there should be consequences, but you should still feel like it is your character. It's a story. Anything can happen. Yeah, in real life, people can just die, but it's like, this is a story. I have horns and a. [00:59:19] Speaker C: And I can do magic, but I'm still real. [00:59:27] Speaker B: Kyle, thank you so much for coming on our podcast. [00:59:30] Speaker A: Yes, it was a treat. You're amazing. It was a nice little discussion we had there, and this might be our first episode. That's over an hour. [00:59:37] Speaker B: Yeah. You are a fantastic storyteller, and I love your dming style, personal experience, but I think your way with words is really nice. And the way you talk is fantastic. And we agree on a lot of things when it comes to managing a game in the systems. It was really a treat to have you on. [00:59:56] Speaker C: It was a treat to be on. I really appreciate it. Thank you. [00:59:59] Speaker A: So after this, where do we find you? Do you just slip into the void or do you have social? [01:00:05] Speaker C: It's nice to have the option of slipping into the void, but I suppose I'll let people know where to find me. Folks can follow me on Instagram, and I don't really check it these days, but formerly Twitter at really anywhere at all at Kyle David Perry. I'm pretty good about having that unlock most places. And more excitingly for people who like tabletop, you can follow my podcast, which is called character build on Instagram, at CB with KDP. That's character build with Kyle David Perry. CB with KDP is where you can find that. We are wrapping up season two. Very excited. The DM for transplanter rpg Connie Chong is our season two finale guest later this month, which is very exciting. We have a lot of fun stuff planned, even some actual play anthologies for early next year. So please check it out. [01:01:05] Speaker B: Yeah, Kyle's pretty legit. [01:01:07] Speaker C: I'm all right. I do okay. Thank you. [01:01:10] Speaker B: You may see, like, a familiar face on there at some point, maybe. I don't know. [01:01:15] Speaker C: Oh, you betcha. [01:01:16] Speaker A: Putting a lot of pressure on Kyle on our own podcast. Okay, so when are we going to be on? [01:01:21] Speaker C: Please keep this in the episode. It'll keep me honest. It'll be like, no, I have to make sure I can get this to happen for sure. [01:01:28] Speaker B: Once we blow up after ten years, Kyle, you're going to have some angry fans coming after you that we were never on your podcast. [01:01:34] Speaker C: Listen, I have a feeling our podcast will blow up at the same time in about five to ten years. [01:01:38] Speaker A: Beautiful. [01:01:39] Speaker B: After we put in all the hours. Great. So Kyle was fantastic. I'm so happy we had them on our podcast. Housekeeping for us. I'm still doing the social media thing, slaving away, actually sweating scheduling, doing all my stuff. You can find us almost everywhere at tales from the tabletop pod. Twitter specifically is tales from the TT because the other name was too long. We post our podcast every Tuesday. Also post on YouTube. If you don't want to listen to Spotify or the other podcasts. Find us wherever podcasts happen. For the most part. Yeah. Am I missing anything? [01:02:24] Speaker A: No, that's basically everything. [01:02:25] Speaker B: That's basically everything. [01:02:27] Speaker A: Thank you, Kyle. I appreciate it so much. You're a wonderful. [01:02:30] Speaker C: Thank you. To both of you. Times two, you each get two thank yous. Thank you. [01:02:34] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [01:02:34] Speaker B: Okay, wow. Stop my ego. All right, everybody, see you next week. [01:02:42] Speaker A: Bye. [01:02:45] Speaker B: That's the spirit.