Strung Along - "Crying Uncle" with Tom Flanagan

[00:00:31] Speaker A: Hi, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of tales from the tabletop. I'm your favorite DM, Kayla Williams. [00:00:41] Speaker B: And I'm your forever alone DM. We're getting a little sad today, boys. Jeff Lunter. [00:00:45] Speaker A: It's almost Valentine's day. [00:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah, sad boy day. Wonderful. We love it. As if we're not very happily, but nonetheless. Well, today we have a very special episode for you guys. We love calling these things strung along, because I feel like anytime we have a guest on the podcast, it's really just so difficult for them putting up with us. But we just want to thank my uncle, Tom Flanagan. Welcome to the show. [00:01:13] Speaker C: Well, thank you for the invite. [00:01:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. We're glad to have you. We're sorry in advance. We've tried this before, a little behind the scenes, but, I mean, he came back, so it's a good sign. [00:01:23] Speaker C: Well, last time it was my fault, not yours. Just so you know. It's okay. [00:01:28] Speaker B: The last time it was. We'll see how it goes this time. [00:01:31] Speaker A: This time will definitely be my fault. [00:01:34] Speaker B: Tell us about yourself. Tell the world about yourself. For people that aren't familiar with you already, what do you do? And who are you? [00:01:41] Speaker C: What do I do? That's not game involved is write software for a company. I'm a programmer, but when I'm trying to have fun, I'm a role player and a board gamer. But my kids, which are now adults, have been role playing with me for many, many years. And in fact, two of my sons have been on our podcast for 13 years. We're coming up on 14 years this summer. [00:02:02] Speaker B: It's crazy, because I'm looking at some of the analytics for our podcast, and you're saying 13 years. We have people younger than 13 that listen, which is wild. [00:02:10] Speaker C: There you go. [00:02:12] Speaker A: Crazy for me to think, honestly, my God. [00:02:15] Speaker C: And one of the reasons we started it is that our youngest son was, I want to say, nine years old. When we started recording, he asked us, why do you go every weekend over to my uncle's house? What are you doing there? And so we started recording the podcast so he could listen. We had to stop swearing as much as we do now. He's older now, so. Yeah. And I think our podcast might actually be listed as explicit. [00:02:41] Speaker B: Nice. You're just like, as he's aged, you've. [00:02:44] Speaker A: Just gotten. [00:02:47] Speaker B: Like a fine wine. [00:02:49] Speaker A: I feel like ours is technically explicit with how much we say the f word. [00:02:53] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:02:54] Speaker B: We read the f word. We don't say it. We never swear. [00:02:57] Speaker C: I've actually had to ask my sons and one of my daughters not to use the f word that much when the grandson's around because they learn words quick, and that's not one thing you want them to start using. [00:03:08] Speaker B: I've been to game nights. That must have been tragic. [00:03:12] Speaker A: Very hard. [00:03:14] Speaker C: Sometimes it's hard. Yes. [00:03:16] Speaker A: A Midwest game session is not complete. [00:03:18] Speaker B: Without a few f bombs and alcohol every time. But, yeah, that's awesome. 13 years running the show. And how long have you been playing the game itself? Back before it was called DNd, was it called? [00:03:32] Speaker C: Actually, one of the first ones I ever started on was now it's called Gerps. But even before that, it had a completely different name. I can't remember what it was called, but I remember going downtown Cleveland to a hobby shop that sold games that I could purchase. And I was young enough that I wasn't able to drive. My parents took me down there to buy it. So that's how long I've been role playing, which I never did the math, but many, many years. [00:04:02] Speaker B: And the fact that you said downtown Cleveland and hobby shop, I'm like, wow, that must have been a long time ago. Something in downtown. Wow. [00:04:12] Speaker C: Yep. Yep. It was very long time ago. [00:04:15] Speaker A: In some ways, I'm thankful that I didn't start super early because I feel like I would just drive my parents up a wall with asking to take me to different game stores, because in my hometown when I was a teenager, we didn't really have any of that. Back in 2016. [00:04:34] Speaker B: Back in the day, aging myself now, six years after the. [00:04:38] Speaker C: Podcast started, uncle, I guarantee you mine didn't start with a 20 year. It was 19 something. But when I was saying our podcast is 13, that had to have been at least two to potentially three times that. I don't know. I'd have to do the math. I've been playing for quite a while. I've always enjoyed role playing. [00:04:58] Speaker B: Nice. So you've been around the block. You've been doing this for a while. When it comes to role playing and just like TTRPG systems in general, what's your favorite system? [00:05:09] Speaker C: I would say my favorite is the fate system, in particular, the Dresden files, because that is the one that we just finished on our podcast, a very, very long story that we were telling. And in fact, I didn't even remember that I did this accidentally. But the first segment we did, which was like 25 episodes, had a name of delivery. And then the next one, it started to spell out Dresden. And we had so many different ones, it actually did spell out Dresden. [00:05:44] Speaker B: Oh, my God. Are you serious? [00:05:46] Speaker C: Yes, I am. It ended up spelling that all out. So that's how many times we did it. And like I said, it was over 13 years, and that's the first time I can ever remember that we actually finished a story that we wanted to. There are plenty of times that we played D and D. And honestly, did we ever get over, like, level eight or nine? No, we didn't. We would always restart. I now have another player who's gming for us, and it's my brother, Scott, who is running DND, and he wants to do each segment where we level up five. So he wants to get us to level 20. We'll see how that works. [00:06:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:06:24] Speaker C: Okay. [00:06:25] Speaker A: That's really interesting. We're currently playing through the Dresden files, as you may know. But I really enjoy DND's leveling system, and I don't think we've ever gotten past, like, level ten. Really? [00:06:37] Speaker C: Okay. [00:06:38] Speaker B: You guys were level eleven at the end of season. [00:06:41] Speaker A: My bad. Level eleven. How could I forget? [00:06:45] Speaker B: It is so hard to get to a higher level, because especially as a DM, you're like, oh, my God. A lot of stuff is not static for higher level encounters. Like, shit. Okay, this is meant for pen. [00:06:57] Speaker C: And. [00:06:57] Speaker B: And, no, under. [00:06:58] Speaker A: You're meant to be a broken God. [00:07:00] Speaker C: Yeah. You actually get more and more powerful. Without a doubt. And Dresdenfal, the fate system, you don't really do that. You don't become that powerful. Although these characters did become more powerful. That is a thing. But Dresden files, in my opinion, is more about storytelling. [00:07:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Something I'm really enjoying about it currently is, like, you're as powerful as your imagination will let you be, so it really leans itself to those storytelling elements, and it fits our group pretty well. I think that's why Jeff made it for us. It's interesting to think that I just watched a TikTok about these people who finished a 30 year long campaign. They were all level 20. Beat some. They rented, like, a cave in Scotland or something. I think I sent it to the group chat, but they rented this huge cave and just stayed in this cave and played D and D for five days straight to finish their 30 year campaign. [00:07:55] Speaker B: Wow, that's a really mean DM. He used XP totals and not milestones for leveling. My God. In fifth edition, it's like, oh, you could just make it cinematically to leveling. [00:08:10] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:08:11] Speaker B: You know what I'm talking about? But, man, he definitely went individual experience and did not let people level for anything. [00:08:17] Speaker C: I remember back in the day when you killed a character. You got the exp. But I can't remember what level it was. It was probably dnd three where the person that killed it got the experience but the other people didn't. Come on. [00:08:35] Speaker B: Unbalanced leveling just sounds so disgusting because how do you plan for that? [00:08:39] Speaker C: I like the idea of just making it more something important happen. You all level up because you all learn something. I like that concept. I like it better. And I think DND, especially with the fifth edition, is getting way more storytelling focused. It's a combat simulation. Absolutely. It still is. That's not as bad. I enjoy it more than I did. I didn't really care for the fourth edition. I don't know if either of you played that. [00:09:05] Speaker B: No, I thankfully avoided that one. [00:09:07] Speaker C: You did well in avoiding that. Yes. [00:09:09] Speaker B: I actually started with Pathfinder, which is. I mean, it's not DND, but it's basically dnd with a bunch of homebrew and broken things that you can. If you really wanted to dive into the number crunching combat mechanics you could. But it was basically that it was like only combat simulation and a little bit of roleplay. [00:09:29] Speaker C: Well, after third edition they kind of went to 3.5 edition. And then when they started talking about fourth edition, then a lot of people bailed out. And you chose what was created because they wanted people to stay on that concept. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah, it's like, don't just drop ttrpgs altogether. Like, here's something that's basically dnd. [00:09:48] Speaker C: Right. So Pathfinder was a good choice. Much better than the fourth edition, in my opinion. [00:09:54] Speaker A: So is it safe to say you're more of a role play person than like a dice rolly min maxing kind of guy? [00:10:00] Speaker C: I have a son who does that. [00:10:03] Speaker A: There's always one. [00:10:05] Speaker C: Yeah, there always is. But he's also like the rules lawyer. He knows them better than anybody else. But as a group we don't really play in such a way that we have to stick with the rules. In our opinion. It's our game. And now you don't constantly change the rules. And one thing that when I started teaching my kids and they were very, very young, they're not now. The oldest is 30. In a few years. When they were younger and I started playing it, I couldn't do what I did to them, which was allow them to do things that were outside of the rules and not apply the changes we made with the rules to the bad guys, too. Now for little kids it didn't matter. But as a role player, I don't like that idea. Of changing the rules so the players can do amazing things, but not the bad guys. There are occasions where, and this may have been in the discussion we had last time, where they take out a bad guy much quicker than they should have, and as a GM, I had to kind of keep them around a bit longer to make it a little more interesting. Now, you're not going to lose, but tweak it a bit. [00:11:05] Speaker B: So you did the Kayla approach where you just add a few zeros to the end of the totals and it's like, oh, I want them to die now. Thank you. [00:11:14] Speaker C: Kayla's very wise. [00:11:15] Speaker A: It's a good you. [00:11:17] Speaker B: Thank you, uncle. [00:11:18] Speaker C: Please. [00:11:19] Speaker A: Dying to hear this. Finally, some recognition for my dMing. [00:11:24] Speaker B: Time to edit it out. [00:11:28] Speaker A: Always try to keep me down, Jeff. [00:11:30] Speaker B: So I guess this is kind of a general thing. I guess it just comes down to the type of character you want to play when you're playing as a player yourself. I was going to ask of the class, but I guess what kind of character do you like to play? [00:11:44] Speaker C: I've played a lot of different characters, and every time I'm starting a new character, I like to go in a different route. Now, it's not to say that some of its aspects and some of its abilities are similar to me, but one of the most difficult times I've ever had playing was when I had a gm tell me, I want you all to be evil characters. And I could not even think of why would a bunch of evil characters work together? [00:12:12] Speaker B: I think the only time I've ever seen that done properly was, I'm not sure if you're familiar with dimension 20, but they did a thing that was basically the Sauron side of the army from Lord of the Rings, and they were all trying to figure out what the fuck to do when, oh, my God, Soron died. How do we react to this? And it ended up being silly, but I can't imagine. [00:12:37] Speaker C: Tough. [00:12:38] Speaker B: There must be a lot of boundaries you cross. How do you find that flexibility? [00:12:44] Speaker C: There is one time I did play an evil character, but in general, to answer your question, I play all different kind of characters, and I always want to make them slightly different because I don't want to make the same player over and over again. But I try to take one aspect that I understand, and I could really play better because I can deal with it. But there was one time when, as a group of role players, we were playing. I didn't mean role players. We were podcasters, and we were playing together in a situation, and it was d d. We all rolled our characters and the GM was like, you can roll four dice and then just take the high three dice for each stat. And I said, okay. And there was one time I rolled a one, a one, a one and a two. And I'm like, okay, so the highest number is four. And he's like, no, tom, go ahead, you can reroll. And I was like, after we stopped the podcast, can I talk to you about this? And he said, sure. So we ended up having a conversation afterwards, and I'm like, I'm perfectly fine staying with the four. But what just came to my mind right now was that I could put it into my constitution, which means I'm not very healthy. And I apologize. I cannot remember. Do you guys know there's a vampire type situation in D-D-A very powerful vampire character, Strahd. I don't know if you. Strahd. Thank you. [00:14:03] Speaker B: I had never heard of it. [00:14:05] Speaker A: Curse of Strahd is very infamous. [00:14:07] Speaker C: Yes. And I knew Strahd was going to be in this story. That's what he described when we started talking. And I said, okay, Jim, how about this? I came from Strahd's universe, but Strahd's universe is not as strong in our universe. That's why you're sending us to Strahd's universe. So right now, I am very, very sick and barely surviving because I'm actually evil and I'm working for Strahd. But when we end up going to his universe, then I'm going to start getting more powerful and more powerful and getting my health back. And he says, oh, Tom, that is wicked. Yeah, I like it. Go for it. So we did do that. And when we got into that universe and my character started getting more healthy and we were in a battle, we had actually saved someone and they kind of got added as an NPC. And I talked to the GM and says, okay, I'm going to screw these guys over and then I'm going to switch to that NPC so you can take over my character as the evil dude. And we did get into a big combat, and I said, he's like, okay, Tom, it's your turn. What do you do? I said, oh, I attack Bret's character. And he's like, wait, you're. Yes, yes, I am. And they just freaked out and tried to kill me. And then after we finished the recording, they started laughing and I said, oh, that was so cool. And I became a different character then. So I don't mind being occasionally evil and helping the GM a little bit, but that's a rare thing, as I usually just enjoy playing something that I enjoy. And I've played a lot of different characters. It depends on what system we're playing. We've played world of darkness. We played well. D d. We played a lot of. And can't think. I mean, potentially. I played a monk. I played a cleric. I played different characters. [00:15:53] Speaker A: Monks are definitely my favorite to play. [00:15:55] Speaker C: I do enjoy them. They are fun. Yeah. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Playing evil characters is, if you can find the nuance in the nugget of empathy within them. I think they're pretty interesting to play. I've helped Jeff by playing not like a totally evil, but like, a kind of ambiguous player before. And we've talked about my one shot before a few times on the podcast, but I think it's a good example of everybody's memories was wiped, and they were actually pretty bad dudes, but at their core, they were good people, because my players like to play good people, and them slowly realizing that they've fallen from grace or, like, the sum of all of their experiences have brought them to being dickheads, essentially. They weren't even really evil. They were just kind of dicks. [00:16:47] Speaker C: There's a few times where I've tried to, as a GM, run evil characters that when the players learn more about them, they're not really that evil. They're doing something, because once you understand their life much more, there's some kind of explanation on what they're doing and why they're doing it. But not always. Sometimes people are just. [00:17:08] Speaker A: I like to think of it as, like, they're ambiguous. They're ambiguous. But what is that event that tips the scales fully? And for my players, it was them leaving their party member to die, essentially without any empathy that tipped them into that evil threshold. And it's like, what's the point of no return? Because everybody thinks they're the good guy. And I love that kind of back and forth idea of it. And also, as DMs, we just play the bad guys all the. [00:17:39] Speaker B: I personally like the idea of kind of planning things out with your. And, like, I think we talked about it before with Kayla, and I have, like, when I introduced the big bad of the last season of our D d campaign, they were the kid of were they found out later on that, oh, that's Loki is my mom, that kind of thing. And they had this little thing where they were going back and forth was like, do I want to work with them? Because this is the only thing I've really been missing in my life. I didn't know if it was exactly that, but I also did it in the first season with my partner and stuff like that, where they were actually a spy the entire time for the people that they were at war with. And it was nice. I always like the little bits of just like, here's what's happening with my character's thoughts behind the scenes, and I feel like sharing it with you, the DM, because it makes for a better story because we can build off of each other. Even last week when we were doing Dresden, I got a message from a player, but I'm not going to tell Kayla, who just, like, really interesting ideas that where their thoughts are based on all the stuff that's happened to them, this chapter. And I'm like, oh, this is delicious. I love this. [00:18:54] Speaker C: That's really what I enjoy about Dresden fowls the most, is the fact that the players have a lot of input on how the story's going. They almost have to because of the aspects of all their characters and the way they're deciding to do things is based on the way they. It's way more storytelling and it's just wonderful. And that's why it is my favorite. And I didn't mean to cut you off. Kayla, go ahead. [00:19:19] Speaker A: Oh, no, it's fine to kind of branch off on that point, though. Dresden Files especially. I don't think we would be able to start off with Dresden Files in our player group, honestly, because it does take a certain level of confidence to attack those ideas and to be independent about your storytelling with others and be like, this is kind of my motivations. I'm going to work together with other people and I trust the players around me. I guess that's a good question of how do you build up your new players to have that confidence to kind of branch out into those storylines? [00:19:59] Speaker C: One of the things we started years ago, and Dresden was definitely one of them. And this recent d d was also where we had an entire session in which we called session Zero, in which we talk about, okay, what world are we playing in? What are the major things? And Dresden files has that where they're talking about, what are the three major things in this city that you're playing in that are potentially problems or difficult or trouble? And I think that when players have the ability to discuss the world that they're going to play in and even have input into saying what it's going to be about. Like the DND one we did, we had a situation where there is a battle coming, and it's going to be a huge war between this very problematic country that always tries to take over. Well, why and how? And what's the past history? And all the players got to contribute that and talk about it and come up with different ideas. And then when you go on and have them design their characters, they already know what the world is like, that their characters have lived in, what their parents have lived in, what the history has been, and it makes it easier for them to come up with an idea that's related and relative to the story that's going to be told. So that's what we've done in the past. [00:21:16] Speaker B: That's one of the main things I love about Dresden, and it's something I'm going to take into my campaigns in the future when it comes to when we eventually move back to five e if we choose to do so. I kind of like the idea of fleshing out the world with the players beforehand, because if you're just creating a bear character and you have no idea what their backstory is, anything like that. It helps so much to have that session zero to be like, okay, this is where I fit into this narrative we've already kind of built, and it's such an awesome piece of storytelling, too. [00:21:52] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's wonderful. And that you don't have to come up with. We all met in a. You can. You can go way deeper than that because you know more about the world. [00:22:03] Speaker A: It's really nice to have the story beats planned out because that's kind of how I make my know. I find out from the know. Jeff can tell you. I'm always asking questions about what he's building, and it's like, what makes sense for what's a character that would live in this world if it's a completely flooded world? Maybe my character is a fisherman, and that makes sense. When we were doing our underground kind of campaign, it was, well, my character is kind of like a hick farmer, and she's got an accent because she walls herself off and works on the agriculture because she's a water genossi, and she can use irrigation to control the humidity and everything to make the crops grow. And I think it's kind of a skill that I don't think I could have created that character all on. My know, everything is so collaborative about it. And a session zero, of course, makes all the difference in these kinds of things. I think Kyle was talking about the kids on bikes and kids on brooms and XYZ have a lot of really good built in mechanics to help you flesh out your characters'relationships and their relation to the world that you're in. [00:23:19] Speaker C: And I always think that's important. Once again, there was a podcast where I was involved with 1234 other podcasters, and the gentleman who was running it was Bret again, and his game that he invented, streets of Avalon. He actually has had it published, and he originally asked us all to read his book, and that's the one that I tried to take with me on vacation when we went to the beach for two weeks and did not. And when I came, like, bret, I'm sorry I did not read your book. And we still had a session zero, which was somewhat helpful. And I told him, okay, could I be like, the streets of Avalon is a huge city that is all about the power of the city and the different groups that are there, and there's cursed creatures that live there. And I'm like, I don't know. And most of the people that will be listening to our podcast don't know. So if I could be someone else that comes from a small little town that wants to come in here because I had a nephew or someone in my family that went to this town and disappeared, and I want to know why. And going here, I'm going to have to learn about the town. And as you describe it to me, you're kind of describing it to the listeners as well. So he ended up using that philosophy. He says, no, that's a good idea. And unfortunately, there was one of the other podcasters, she didn't read the book either. So we ended up coming from the same town. And classic. That was the one where I was told in, I think it was origins gaming convention, that someone recognized my voice from the podcast. And the thing was that when I designed the character, I said, well, I want to be an older character who is like the male of the city, who everybody calls Grandpa because he's older and he's knowledgeable. And the other player that came from the same town didn't want me to do that because she had an issue with her real life grandfather. So I was like, okay, I'll be grandmother. And she ended up playing a younger druid, and I think I was a cleric at that time, but it turns out, well, I had to talk to the GM as well. If I'm a very old person and I don't have any power, how about this idea that there's something that took my power away, and that was what the problem is with my missing relative, et cetera, and he worked it into the story and it was all great. But the thing was, I constantly was called Grandma by all of the players throughout the story. And when I was at that convention, one of the people that was talking to all of the podcasters kept looking at me and at one point asked grandma. And I was like, yeah, that's me. [00:26:11] Speaker B: That's my character. [00:26:12] Speaker A: I'm grandma. [00:26:13] Speaker C: It was a little embarrassing, but I was like, oh, well, I didn't have much of a choice. And I don't have a problem with playing any female or male or orc or. [00:26:27] Speaker B: I mean, we're dms. We have to. We're the rest of the world. [00:26:30] Speaker C: That's true. [00:26:31] Speaker A: Yeah, we don't. [00:26:32] Speaker C: I didn't mind it, though. [00:26:33] Speaker A: Too many voices in our campaign. Thankfully. [00:26:36] Speaker C: I am definitely not a voice actor. I have a brother. He's the one that's running DNd and he does do different Voices. Oh, good for him. [00:26:43] Speaker B: That's awesome. [00:26:44] Speaker C: Yeah, it is. And he does a good job. But the problem is that I don't. And there are times when I've tried to do that. And then I went to another future episode and did a voice and they're like, that's not the same. [00:26:56] Speaker B: That's where I would be, is. I would not remember what voice I used and be like, well, shit, yeah. [00:27:01] Speaker A: I think I've said this before, but I'll do like one or two lines in the voice. When I'm dming, I'm like, and that's what they sound like. And then I'll talk normal for the rest of the campaign, maybe like one or two voice lines because it hurts after a while. [00:27:14] Speaker C: I don't mind coming up with different ideas for characters and different personalities and making them because I think that's important. You can't always play the same character for every NPC that you're playing as a GM. You have to make them have different personalities and it doesn't have to be a different voice. [00:27:29] Speaker A: I think that's a good transition into the next question, which you were talking a little bit about how big your worlds are and making personalities for all these different npcs. With such a big world and how long your campaign is gone, how do you keep track of it all? Are you like a notetaker or how does that work? [00:27:53] Speaker C: Actually, I'm not. Like I said, my brother, he's a notetaker. He'll spend a good week before we play again, coming up with ideas and writing it all out. I'm just kind of a storyteller and I'm willing to go. Now, that's not to say I don't write down things, because when we started Dresden final, it was definitely in the city of Cleveland because that's where we lived and everybody was comfortable with that. And we have a lot of things. If you do any research about Cleveland. Oh, yeah, there's a lot of evil things that have happened in the past in Cleveland. Then there's murderers and ghosts and all kinds of things that are claimed to be in Cleveland. But as the Dresden file story went along, it became, okay, there's more effect on Ohio now. There's more effect on the world now. There's more effect on the universe. And yes, absolutely, I did have to do some research. I did have to write some things down. I had to, in occasion, even take pictures, which I would share, because in the very beginning, we started playing. It was person to person. And then when Covid hit a few years ago, we started doing it audio, and we've kept doing it that way just because it's really easy. And we can start recording minutes without having to do an hour to drive to all get together, so it's a little bit easier. But yes, I definitely do some research on some of the places that they're going to and try to share as much as I can about that. But in some cases, too, I've got some people that are players for me that love sharing their information about that particular, and I have no problem including it in the game. [00:29:30] Speaker A: That's pretty cool. Yeah, I think we have the luxury of playing once a week, so the likelihood of us forgetting what happened in between each week is lower. I feel bad for people who can only play, like, once a month. Like my partner, he only plays once a month for, like, a five hour session. [00:29:47] Speaker C: Yeah. And in general, we do try to play once a week, but sometimes that's not an option because someone got sick or someone has dropped off. We've had some issues. My brother, who has been playing with us for most of the 13 years, actually had left for a few years and recently left for a few months because he had a son who passed away. And that was just like, he had to drop out and take care of family and stuff. And it's understandable and a tragic thing. But there are other times where something comes along, and especially, I don't know about you guys during the holidays, but that is, like, the hardest time. [00:30:26] Speaker B: Odly enough, of all the things I'm involved with, DND was probably the most consistent during the holidays. I was like, okay, wow, so this is surprising? [00:30:35] Speaker C: Well, because my son John works at a game shop where you basically pay to get access to their entire library and you could spend their whole evening there playing. They also have a kitchen and they also serve food. So he's typically working Fridays and Saturdays. And he's now a person who teaches people how to play games, which is really cool. Yeah, he enjoys it a lot. But we used to record on Friday nights and we can't. We had to move it to a Thursday. And then when you hit things like Thanksgiving, and it is literally Thursday, it's like, yeah, we're not playing this week. It's not a thing you can do, especially when you hit Christmas. And those also happen to be on like. Well, those were more on the weekend. So we sometimes can play and sometimes can't. But yeah, then there's times when I go to the beach for two weeks and you can't play. [00:31:23] Speaker A: What a problem. [00:31:25] Speaker C: It's really not. [00:31:28] Speaker B: So you're talking about your son being in, teaching people how to game and everything like that, these different board games. I guess it could kind of translate over to TTrPGs as well. But what do you believe makes a great gaming experience in general? [00:31:42] Speaker C: The fun of it is having fun and allowing people to have something important to them as they're playing. That their character is meaningful and has a focus around it. And I'm sure, as you know, Jeff, that when you play fate in particular, Dresden Files is something you're currently playing. You can give them extra points to do, fate points to do better when they're attempting something in a bonus, if some of their aspect is brought into the game and is important and affects the story. So that's the thing that's probably the most difficult in Tresden file, is making sure that you put all of that into the game in a way that is relative to each character. Because the fate points and the aspects that a character has is five. So how many players do you have? [00:32:39] Speaker B: We have five. [00:32:40] Speaker C: So you have 25 different sentences that explains what is potentially useful in the story. Because you have five players that have 25 sentences that explain what is important to that character. That's kind of what you have to plan ahead. And making sure that you include it into the story makes them have more fun because it shows that their character means something. It's not somebody you're ignoring. Right. So in general, that's what I think makes the characters have the most fun, is making their storyline of their character and what they're all about way more relevant to what's happening in this universe. [00:33:24] Speaker B: So let's turn this on its head a little bit, without naming names, obviously, because we know some of these people. I know in real life, have you ever witnessed a horror story unfolding with your players in front of you and kind of dovetailing with that or going along with that? Is it your place as a DM to step in and stop it? [00:33:45] Speaker C: Yeah, it definitely is your job as a GM. And there has been times that I've had to do that, too, where in a few occasions we were starting a game or something, characters would be coming up with something. They're so, no, that's not going to fit into this universe at all, because one of our players actually said, I want to be an alien from another planet in Dresden files. What does that have to do with anything that we're playing here? Sometimes it's kind of important to help them understand the situation before you start playing so that they can create the type of characters that they should. But that can be tough. It absolutely can. [00:34:20] Speaker A: Yeah. I think we were reading a story the other day about how it was more of, like, a social conflict than anything having to do with the game, really. But this player was like, hey, this DM and me and this player are having tension, and it's starting to bleed into our real lives. At what point does, like, a social situation become the DM's responsibility? And maybe a little bit muddier with you, I think, since you play with family. So there's a different dynamic going into it. But I know a lot of people who use online groups or, like, a paid DM as a conflict avoidant person running a game can feel kind of stressful because it's like, at what point am I like, hey, mediator moment, let's all cool down. It's certainly a tough call to make. [00:35:11] Speaker C: I have gone to a lot of conventions and not to be critical of my players because it didn't involve them at all. I have been in situations at a convention where it was terrible, and if you want me to save it for the end, Jeff, I can. [00:35:28] Speaker B: Oh, for a horror story. [00:35:29] Speaker C: Oh, yes, absolutely. [00:35:31] Speaker B: We'll save this story. That's exciting. [00:35:33] Speaker C: So there are a few times that it has been not the best, but with that way, you don't have much control over that. You don't know what you're getting into when you're coming up to a GM that you've never played before. I think that over the 13 years that we've been playing, we've gotten together so many times that we understand each other. And we have the ability to do a good job of playing together, I. [00:35:57] Speaker B: Guess trying to, not keeping along, like the tense situation kind of thing. What's something that is 100% going to cause tension at a table? [00:36:06] Speaker C: Well, we attempt not to, but we do have. I don't know. Have you guys put in an x card in the middle of your play session? [00:36:15] Speaker B: Not yet, but I have posted it. I was like, hey, look, if this is uncomfortable for anyone, we set the expectations pretty early on, especially with this, because Dresden is a modern day system. It's like, based in modern day America, and it's like, oh, God, there's a lot of terrible things that we could get into that I don't really feel like getting into, but. So it's nice to have those boundaries versus A-D-D system where it's, okay, it's. It's a lizard man arguing with a. Like, it's hard to really put yourself know. [00:36:48] Speaker A: It's silly. Like, objectively, it's a silly image. [00:36:51] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. [00:36:52] Speaker C: Well, we have also included that in session zero as things that we want to avoid. And that way we can keep the story early on away from going in the direction that we don't want it to. But we do have a character. Not a character, we have a player who has a couple of issues that he adds to every single time we're playing. And I fully understand it well, and I fully understand one of them. The other one. The one is that he hates the concept of children in danger. And I get that, I do. This is a story, and we're just making it up, so it wouldn't bother me. But that disturbs him in the point where he will literally walk away. So that is not something he enjoys. And like I said, I fully understand that the other one is spiders, and I don't know why that bothers him so much, but literally, if any creature is a spider, he gets all squiggly and wants to leave the podcast. It bothers him that much. But we try to definitely have that situation. And as I mentioned, the x in the middle of the table is when a player can just reach over and tap it and go, okay, this particular theme we're going on, can we move along? I don't want to go into any more details about this. And in most cases, it's just something awkward that they don't really want to deal with. And it could be virtually anything. So that's a nice option. [00:38:18] Speaker A: Feeling safe with your players is so important, because I think if I was in a brand new group. I wouldn't feel comfortable broaching some of the topics we've broached in the past. And I think that's what the sheet I have specifically has different levels of consent to certain topics. It's either, yes, I'm okay with this being in the game. No, I don't want this in the game at all. And then there's a middle option of, this makes me uncomfortable, but I'm okay if we approach it tactfully, kind of like a yellow card, essentially. Like, yes, we can broach the subject, but if it gets too intense, we can take it away. [00:38:58] Speaker C: It's understandable. [00:38:59] Speaker A: It doesn't have to be. It's all about trust at the end of the day, isn't it? Feel like we say the same shit over and over again. Trust, love and respect. [00:39:09] Speaker B: In case you're DM on the mouth. Oh, sorry. [00:39:11] Speaker C: You're playing to have fun, right? You want to make it fun for everybody. I get that. [00:39:17] Speaker B: So when you walk into a table, what does expectation setting look like for you? I guess as a player and as a DM separately. [00:39:26] Speaker C: What do you mean? I'm sorry, I'm not quite following. [00:39:28] Speaker B: So what do you feel like you as a player, should bring to the table to make something more interesting? And what do you feel like as a DM you should bring to a table? Like, what do you expect in your game to make it, like, the most captivating story you can? [00:39:43] Speaker C: I honestly think that they are both somewhat similar. As a player, I always want to have, as was mentioned earlier by you guys, a relationship with other players, that there's some kind of tie and that we're going to work together, we're going to help each other. We're going to do things that are beneficial to them. I tend to, as I mentioned, sometimes play clerics so that I can help save the other players. But as the GM, I don't want to kill them all off. I want to give them something interesting and fun to do. So again, the same thing is I want to try to focus around their characters and what their job is, what is their abilities, and give them something that's challenging and occasionally give them something that's a little bit higher, that is difficult because sometimes it can be a bit too easy because they're powerful. But I think it's more fun to make it a difficult thing that they have to figure out a solution. And one of the things that really bothered me way back in the day is a GM who came up with an idea and you had to find the solution. But the solution you had to find was theirs. So if you came up with an idea on how to solve it, and he was like, no, that doesn't. [00:40:56] Speaker B: Oh, God, no, no. [00:40:57] Speaker C: It was really annoying. So it's just giving other players their idea to go in their direction, but something that is challenging to them is what I believe to be fun. [00:41:10] Speaker A: I was listening to dungeons and daddies, and I think Anthony Birch is a fantastic dm because he'll literally just say, like, he'll make a joke, and then if his players laugh at it, he'll be like, oh, yeah, it happens because it's funny. And the last episode I listened to, the players reacted negatively or they didn't laugh at a suggestion he made, and they were like, did that really happen? He's like, well, if it was funny enough, it was going to happen, but nobody really seemed to laugh, so I guess it doesn't. And I'm like, that's so real. Yes. Bend the rules if it's funny. [00:41:44] Speaker C: In listening to your guys'episode, Kayla, I think I heard once that you mentioned that there's occasionally times that players might say, oh, no, this might be. And they describe what it might be and it's not what you were planning it to be, and then you were like, okay, no, we're going to make it. That's more interesting. That's a great idea. And it's not something that I haven't done in the past. I definitely have. Where they have come up with an idea was like, oh, damn, that's better than the thought I had. Yeah, we're going to move that into the. [00:42:13] Speaker B: Rip a sheet out of your notebook. Like, okay, well, that's gone. [00:42:16] Speaker A: Yes. I did all of the foreshadowing and planted all these clues for you intentionally, for you to figure this out. Definitely. [00:42:24] Speaker C: It's amazing how you guys figured that out. That's a really good idea. [00:42:27] Speaker A: I'm like, oh, you guys got me. I love shit. Like, I know. Five nights at Freddy's, Scott Cawthon, he infamously would change the lore when people started to figure it out and he wanted it to feel like, nope, you didn't get it. It's way more complicated than that. And then he would just change it even though they were right. I'm the opposite of that. I'll change to make, you know, as. [00:42:55] Speaker C: I stated, I absolutely hate if the GM has come up with a story and you have to do their story. That's not the way it should be. It really isn't. Everybody's telling the story together. So GM, just deal with it. If they come up with a better idea, go ahead. Yeah, go in that direction. [00:43:13] Speaker A: Just deal with it. End podcast mic drop. [00:43:22] Speaker B: So you alluded to it a little bit earlier, and I have been on the edge of my seat, not because of the way the doggy blanket is positioned, but because I'm excited to hear what you have in store for us for your horror story. [00:43:37] Speaker A: Also because of the doggy blanket and the fuzzy dice you hang off your. [00:43:41] Speaker B: Mic, it's really cool. I got them from Dave and Buster. [00:43:44] Speaker A: Anyway, see Twitter for photo. [00:43:48] Speaker C: We went to. When I say we, it was me, my son Thomas, and Nikki, a friend of mine who lives in Buffalo, went to the origins gaming convention. I don't know if you guys have ever even heard of that, let alone gone there. [00:44:05] Speaker A: I have not, but I do want to go. [00:44:07] Speaker C: Origins is in Columbus, Ohio, which is only a couple of hours from us. And I think in the most recent year, well, during 2020, it was canceled because of COVID but the year before was 20,000 people. It's a huge convention. And last year it was, I think, around 16,000. So it's going back up. I love going there. It's really good. And the good thing is that you have to find this one particular room that does great concept of. I think it's a four hour session in which you get to play these more modern games. It's not specifically d d, and many of them are totally brand new, and the GM or the designer who created it is going to run it. And that's really fun stuff. But one time Nikki and I went to a game, and it was one we had never played before and will never play again, only in the sense that there was this lady who was running it as a GM, and she started running it, and it was horrible because she added characters of her own that she was telling her own story and it was all about her characters and it was nothing about ours. And she never asked us anything. And she kept talking about things and basically trying to sell them to us. And there was a point where she's like, okay, we're going to take a break. And I said, oh, okay, because I have to go get a drink of water. And I picked up all my items and I pointed Nikki back to the table and we just walked away because it was like something we were not going to continue doing. Because one of the things that drives me insane is when a GM adds their own character to a session and then keeps having the story about their character. Rather than ours. That is not the way it's supposed to be. And this lady was really bad at this and she was terrible. And I've actually, way back in the day, there was a session called Queen City Conquest in Buffalo. And that's actually where I met Nikki. And I went there for a few years and that convention is no longer. They stopped it a while ago because they were actually losing money each year, which was sad, but that was the one time that I was AGM. They invited me and I was up on a big poster and the whole thing. Yeah, I know. It was impressive. And I ran games for them and it was fun because I've been doing it long enough that I knew how to deal with new players that haven't played it before or making sure that I got them included into the story and having fun. One of the things that drove me wild, it just drove me wild was having a GM that. Okay, we literally didn't even have to be here. [00:46:55] Speaker B: You're just for us. That's not what we're here for. [00:46:59] Speaker A: Do you remember any specific things she did? [00:47:02] Speaker C: Yeah, there was a particular scene that she broke and we started going to that area to investigate it. And then someone showed up her character and started explaining a bunch of stuff. What are you doing? I mean, that's literally what we're supposed to be doing. I can't even remember the game that type that it was because like I said, I would never play it again. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Oh, no. [00:47:24] Speaker C: Yeah. So that was just a bad. [00:47:28] Speaker B: Even more stressful when the person who created the game is sitting there watching you like, how are they receiving this? [00:47:35] Speaker C: Oh, God, they're walking away. They're not coming back. [00:47:40] Speaker B: That's okay. She learned a lesson that day. [00:47:42] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:47:43] Speaker A: Hopefully a powerful lesson. [00:47:45] Speaker C: But one of the things that is annoying when you go to a convention is each of these sessions you have to sign up ahead of time and it takes 4 hours. So how many are you going to do during a day? Maybe two or three, maybe. And having to walk away. And then you can't really schedule one because it's not going to start for a few more hours and. Okay, so we're going to lunch, maybe a long lunch. Maybe they serve some alcohol. Let's get the hell out of here. [00:48:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:12] Speaker C: It was the worst I think I've ever had was a gym that's telling their own story but also running their own characters and rolling. [00:48:22] Speaker B: Don't do that. [00:48:23] Speaker A: We literally just had a story about that. The one player who wanted her NPC to date the other player character. Do you remember, Jeff? [00:48:35] Speaker C: Yes, I do remember that. [00:48:38] Speaker B: You need to be in love with me. And then they're like, your heart aches. Make a wisdom save. [00:48:43] Speaker A: Like, what the fuck? You can't hit somebody you love. [00:48:46] Speaker C: Yeah, I do remember listening to that. [00:48:49] Speaker B: That's so disgusting. [00:48:51] Speaker A: Just along for the ride. [00:48:55] Speaker C: Yeah, that's annoying. I'm sorry. But like I said, it's all about storytelling. And it's not one person, it's all of the players telling the story. Exactly. Otherwise you're doing it wrong. [00:49:11] Speaker A: What a treat to have you on. [00:49:13] Speaker C: Well, thank you. [00:49:14] Speaker A: It's been so nice. [00:49:16] Speaker C: It was a pleasure to be here and I love talking to you guys. One quick thing I want to mention before is I don't know where you guys get the music before your episode. Okay, maybe you're not going to tell me. [00:49:30] Speaker B: Well, it is open source, but I did add a lot of different sound effects and stuff to it. Like the Dora creaking, the shrieking, the howling, all that fun stuff. I added just random elements to it that made it more. [00:49:42] Speaker C: But I honestly think everybody has their own way of doing coming up with creative ideas. And one of the gentlemen that did the music for us in Dresden Files was Joe Kirby. [00:49:53] Speaker B: Yeah, that's our cousin. That's awesome. [00:49:55] Speaker C: Yeah, and he does a great job of making music, which, by the way, so do you, Jeff. Oh, thanks. [00:50:01] Speaker B: I stole an asset, but I added my own flair. [00:50:06] Speaker A: A free asset, everybody. That we were allowed to use. [00:50:13] Speaker C: I meant more that you actually do play music. And I don't know if you come up with your own music, but you are a music player, are you not? [00:50:21] Speaker A: Yeah, Jess. In a band, everybody. [00:50:24] Speaker B: I'm in a band. [00:50:25] Speaker C: That's right. [00:50:27] Speaker B: We're putting out a new single the day this podcast drops. But whatever, no big deal. [00:50:32] Speaker C: It's a great band. I happen to know a few of you in that band, and you're damn good. [00:50:37] Speaker B: But yeah. Thank you so much, uncle. I appreciate you coming by and joining us in this little adventure and diving into some terrible, terrible stories of dms, just making everything about themselves. And I love hearing what you have to say. I love your thoughts on a lot of the stuff. Like, you are the reason I started doing Dresden. I love that idea. And honestly, when I started playing with you is when I shifted my storytelling to not matching exactly what you do. But I was like, this makes more sense to me. And I noticed a lot of people having more fun with how you tell your stories. [00:51:15] Speaker C: Well, thank you. I appreciate it and it was a pleasure when I did actually get to play with you. Good. And it's also a pleasure to talk to both of you in the podcast. I really enjoy listening to it. It's good stuff. It really is. Thank you. [00:51:29] Speaker A: You can actually get to know, well, you know, Jeff already, but get to know me. I'm not just a mysterious voice behind the screen or a random name thrown out in conversation. It really is such a treat. And I feel so thankful to have such an experienced dm on the podcast because this is kind of the direction we want to take things. Yes. It's nice to read other. I think I probably literally said the same shit the last time we interviewed somebody. But we want to do the original thing. We want to explore different, pick people's brains about it. [00:52:07] Speaker C: It's not a bad thing to learn new ways of doing things. And hopefully, I'm not saying that I'm the perfect player. Sorry, I'm not. I do have fun, and I've been doing it for a long time. And if it helps a little bit, that's great. But I also love listening to you guys and enjoy your podcast each week. [00:52:24] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you so much. [00:52:26] Speaker A: I'm the perfect player. But it's okay. We all have to start somewhere. Where can we find you? Shout out all your stuff. [00:52:36] Speaker C: Wow. Okay. There's a lot of places that I'm at, but strap in. Yeah. One of the places we started was on Facebook, which I know that not everybody uses Facebook, and I kind of only hang out there now to see pictures from the family, but there are people that go there, and it's Kotn podcast is our site there. We also have a blog, which is kotnpodcast.com, and we are on Twitter. Or do we have to call it X now? I don't even know. I'm not a fan of Twitter by. [00:53:08] Speaker A: The saying formerly Twitter. [00:53:12] Speaker C: Formerly Twitter, yes. And we're also on Spotify, and we have been. We are on the apple. That's where we originally started broadcasting, but we kind of switched over to Spotify simply because Apple screwed up because, well, we're on episode 583 and they can't handle that many, by the way, and they just started dropping them off. So we're like, screw you, apple. We're not going to use you. [00:53:40] Speaker B: So hopefully Spotify can handle us when they're at 583. [00:53:43] Speaker C: Oh, they absolutely can, because all 583 of our episodes are there. [00:53:48] Speaker B: Nice. [00:53:48] Speaker A: Fantastic. Spotify has a lot of great engagement tools as well. [00:53:51] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:53:52] Speaker A: Not to get dorky, but I would absolutely agree. [00:53:56] Speaker C: And that's about the majority of the places we are. So you want to find us, just look for nights of the night or KoTn. [00:54:05] Speaker B: All right, that's amazing. All right, do your thing. [00:54:07] Speaker A: Kayla, what are our socials? Thank you so much, everybody, for joining us here on the podcast today. We had a great time interviewing Jeff's uncle. We learned a lot here, and we had a lot of fun. If you would like to find us, Spotify is our main podcast posting platform. You can also find us anywhere else you would like to listen to your podcasts. Social media, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, the other ones. TikTok. We are tales from the tabletop pod. That is tales from the tabletop pod, formerly Twitter. We are tales from the TT because the other one was too long. Same profile pic that you see here. Come join us. We post memes and promos and whatever. I post all of our social media, so you can come talk to me over there. And if you want to tell Jeff he smells, go ahead and let me know. I'll pass that along. We also have A-Q-A session attached to all of our Spotify. So if you would like to tell us your horrible stories, go ahead and leave a small snippet in the Q A section. Tell us what you think. Leave some nice words. Tell Jeff he smells, because he'll definitely read that one. [00:55:23] Speaker B: I'll see that. [00:55:24] Speaker A: Unfortunately, if you want to give us a more long form story so we can read your story in its entirety on the podcast, send us an email to tales from [email protected]. [email protected] we look forward to seeing you guys next week, and as always, kiss your DM square on the lips. [00:55:49] Speaker B: Thank you. [00:55:50] Speaker A: That was stolen by o. [00:56:00] Speaker B: Nice. Get that out of the way early on. I'm glad. See, my favorite thing is you're doing the vulc exercises and we have the microphones hot, so it's perfect for me. [00:56:09] Speaker A: To add bloopers on later. I'm being exposed. [00:56:13] Speaker C: Otherwise you're doing it wrong. [00:56:15] Speaker B: You have these very final statements, and I love it so much. It makes it perfect for us to.